all read!

[Bukey]

liquideyes said:

Must confess, piracy gets on my tits. It's common theft (only difference is, you don't have to peg it away from some security guards with the software stashed under your jacket).

 

It would be pretty ironic for me to condone piracy (I write software for a living - if everyone pirated it then I'd be out of a job!)

 

Gotta agree with ya.... But on the other hand I think that software houses do take the piss in how much they charge the individual....

 

I don't condone piracy in any way, shape or form. Likewise, I don't condone the ripping-off of the individual by software houses and the industry.

[LiquidEyes]

Things that get on my tits about software pirates (this isn't a dig at you Bukey )

 

1. The self-righteous justification thing - i.e. "I don't feel guilty about stealing software because it's overpriced anyway." I think Ferraris are overpriced but I don't go around nicking them!

 

2. Most pirates have no idea how much it costs to make software anyway. It takes many man-years of highly skilled work to make your average software product. It is a very competitive and high-risk industry.

 

3. They won't admit that there is only one reason why they steal software: because it's easy to do. There is no way you can justify it. If you had to peg it past a security guard with the product stashed under your jacket, then less people would do it.

 

I agree that some software is overpriced, but if you can't afford it, don't buy it, and don't [censored] steal it either.

[LiquidEyes]

Bukey said:

But on the other hand I think that software houses do take the piss in how much they charge the individual....

My anecdotal response to that comment, is that I was made redundant from the last software house I worked for, due to dwindling sales. £50 or £100 may sound like a lot for software, compared with the price of CDs or clothes, but trust me it's bugger-all considering how costly software is to develop.

 

We knew for a fact that cracked versions of our products were available online...

[Capn Jack]

liquideyes said:

Things that get on my tits about software pirates (this isn't a dig at you Bukey )

 

1. The self-righteous justification thing - i.e. "I don't feel guilty about stealing software because it's overpriced anyway." I think Ferraris are overpriced but I don't go around nicking them!

 

2. Most pirates have no idea how much it costs to make software anyway. It takes many man-years of highly skilled work to make your average software product. It is a very competitive and high-risk industry.

 

3. They won't admit that there is only one reason why they steal software: because it's easy to do. There is no way you can justify it. If you had to peg it past a security guard with the product stashed under your jacket, then less people would do it.

 

I agree that some software is overpriced, but if you can't afford it, don't buy it, and don't [censored] steal it either.

 

Nicely put.

[Bukey]

Liquideyes - I know how much software costs to develop...

 

However, I really do believe that the majority of software houses have got it all wrong, wrong, wrong...

 

The best way to tackle piracy? Make software available for no charge or a nominal charge to the individual.

 

This will do several things:

 

- Mean that more people are up-to speed with software, and therefore companies and businesses are more likely to invest in software their staff are already competent in.

 

- Allow proper support structures to be put in place at an additional cost, especially to businesses.

 

I really believe that software houses *can* afford not to attempt to rip of the individual Joe Bloggs. For a start off, a shed load of money will be saved in anti-piracy measures... Piracy will pretty much vanish.

 

The majority of companies do actually want to have completely legitimate licensed software, and you're more likely to get them to buy products if staff are competent in using it.

[LiquidEyes]

Bukey said:

The best way to tackle piracy? Make software available for no charge or a nominal charge to the individual.

So how do you plan to recoup the development costs of, say, two million pounds?

 

Allow proper support structures to be put in place at an additional cost, especially to businesses.

This doesn't really apply to general consumer software, e.g. MS Word. No home user wants to pay for support, they just want to buy a tangible product then own it (support included).

 

For a start off, a shed load of money will be saved in anti-piracy measures...

Disagree. The cost of anti-piracy measure is negligible compared with the overall development and marketing costs.

 

Piracy will pretty much vanish.

Very optimistic. People pirate even the cheapest software, fact. E.g. Fruityloops, a very popular and very useful music creation tool. A snip at around £60 (the cost of a few nights out maybe). I use it day in, day out, as do a lot of people (compare the usage-to-cost ratio of, say, a car). But the number of users I know who have actually bought it, I can count on one hand.

[Bukey]

liquideyes said:

Bukey said:

The best way to tackle piracy? Make software available for no charge or a nominal charge to the individual.

So how do you plan to recoup the development costs of, say, two million pounds?

 

But by releasing software at nominal charges to the consumer, and having realistic costs to businesses you will recoup the development costs. The very fact that a consumer can get their hands on XYZ software at nominal/no charge at home will mean that they are becoming a walking advert for XYZ software - and are becoming more competent in its use. When they go to work, and see how XYZ software can help them or other areas of their business, they will tout it to the decision makers, who are now more likely to buy XYZ software. Don't believe me? Look at Linux in the server market!

 

Allow proper support structures to be put in place at an additional cost, especially to businesses.

This doesn't really apply to general consumer software, e.g. MS Word. No home user wants to pay for support, they just want to buy a tangible product then own it (support included).

 

Maybe, maybe not. Word has an extensive help system, coupled with many, many websites dedicated to its use, an entire professional qualification in its use (MOUS), many thousands of books, many hundreds of training courses.... Most software doesn't have this kind of support backup. Support isn't just a telephone hotline with front-line fixes, though that can be part of it (but, for example, Word is such a developed product that it requires this less - but some companies still pay for Office telephone support).

 

For a start off, a shed load of money will be saved in anti-piracy measures...

Disagree. The cost of anti-piracy measure is negligible compared with the overall development and marketing costs.

 

Agree with the cost of anti-piracy measures being relatively low compared with overall development and marketing costs, but by making software available for negligible/nominal charges to the consumer, you can immediately remove that particular aspect of anti-piracy costs. Whilst it may be a relatively low cost - across the entire industry it's a pretty sum saved.

 

Piracy will pretty much vanish.

Very optimistic. People pirate even the cheapest software, fact. E.g. Fruityloops, a very popular and very useful music creation tool. A snip at around £60 (the cost of a few nights out maybe). I use it day in, day out, as do a lot of people (compare the usage-to-cost ratio of, say, a car). But the number of users I know who have actually bought it, I can count on one hand.

 

Whilst there will always be those that pirate, many would actually purchase legitimate software if it was released for a nominal/no charge. Most people would actually prefer not to pirate, believe it or not.

 

If all flavours of Microsoft Office were sold to the *consumer* for £10 a go, more people would actually buy it than do now. An awful lot more. Total income revenue would be higher than consumer sales for Microsoft Office are today. I would put a bet on it.

[LiquidEyes]

£10 a pop?!

They'd have to sell more than 10x as many copies! I think not!

 

Do you think new cars should cost £1000 instead of £10000 as well? Why do you think software is overpriced? Just because it seems less "tangible" than clothes, beer, etc?

[Bukey]

That's my point... They'd sell many 100s of times as copies than they do currently to the consumer.

 

Cars cost a lot to make per piece... And development costs of a car are much higher.... Not a feasible comparison!

 

I think software is overpriced to *the consumer* - not generally overpriced.... I think the consumer and business are different markets.

 

It's got nothing to do tangibility...

 

I don't agree with piracy in any form - but I don't think the industry is tackling it in the right manner...

[Scream]

the fact is companies actually have to relie on software piracy. Now the first one that can tell me why that is i'll give you a

[Bukey]

Scream: Because it's a distribution arm that they wouldn't have if piracy didn't exist...

 

If piracy didn't exist, then a lot less people would have the software, and be comfortable using it. The brand awareness for that piece of software would be lower, so less companies would feel comfortable with parting with £££s to buy it... Overall there'd be less of that piece of software sold, and less people skilled in using it...

[Scream]

aye and remember software that you would need to learn to work with no one would buy it to use it. I mean why buy the software if you're no good with it?

[Bukey]

Scream said:

aye and remember software that you would need to learn to work with no one would buy it to use it. I mean why buy the software if you're no good with it?

 

My point exactly.... Especially with businesses...

 

One of the things that really gets me with M$... If it wasn't for us techies, there software ('specially server side) would be nowhere... They really should give MCPs/MCSAs/MCSEs/MCDAs et al free, testbed software - to ensure that we're on top form and so is the implementation of their software....

 

But that's just a personal bugbear....

[LiquidEyes]

You still haven't explained why you think software is overpriced (to the consumer)? I strongly disagree that they would sell 100x more copies by slashing the price, but obviously there is no official data on how many pirates there are versus how many legitimate users, so neither of us can prove our arguments.

 

Obviously, if Microsoft thought they could sell 100x more copies by slashing the price, they would! They're in it for the money after all!

 

The point of my car analogy is that, like software, it is a semi-luxury item. Few people need one (in the same sense that you need, say, food and a roof over your head). However it is not a pure luxury item in the same way as CDs and videos, which you definitely don't need.

 

Cars cost more to manufacture per-piece, but the costs are still a negligible proportion of the total cost of the car. (Proof in the pudding: look at the range of car prices. Do you think that a £100k car costs 5 times as much to manufacture as a £20k car? Of course not, it's pure supply and demand, because people *will pay it*).

 

Software is semi-luxury too. You don't technically need MS Word (after all, pens and paper still do the job) but if you write a lot of letters and you have a PC, you'd be stupid not to use Word.

 

People don't mind paying a little more for something as useful (and non-disposable) as software. It doesn't take a genius businessman to work out that £50 for a wordprocessor is a bit of a bargain considering how much use you can get out of it. People get much less use out of a car but are willing to spend thousands a year on petrol, insurance, running costs etc.

 

People don't pirate software because it's overpriced. People pirate it because it's easy to pirate.

[campalena]

Bukey said:

If you've got Norton, then there's no need....

 

*But* if you've got an illegal copy of Norton, I'd uninstall that and put AVG from Grisoft on.

 

I don't know what version of Norton you've got - but do you get regular updates (weekly) for it?

 

(BTW, I use Norton myself)

 

I get weekly updates on norton which it does when i start up comp, it also does weekly virus scan of the system etc, same for firewall thingy! Its not really stealing, how come things such as Kazaa exist then, I might be being dumb but no offence to anyone but i think that most ppl download for whatever reason, its far too overpriced to buy a software package!