Crock of shit email

[Maria]

QUOTE (alasdairm @ Mar 14 2004, 14:43)

QUOTE (Maria @ Mar 14 2004, 05:16) No-one knows what goes on in another persons mind. indeed maria. don't you see that you can use this statement to support both sides of the argument...   alasdair Yes, I do. Although instant reaction / thoughts of it happening, to say, my nephew, made me post how I did.   Murder is murder though.   an innocent human being taken away from people who love him. What I will say though is this..   AND THIS IS MY TRUE HONEST THOUGHTS (slate me if you want guys - I don't care).   A rapist DOES NOT CHOOSE to be a rapist.   A murderer DOES NOT CHOOSE to be a murderer.   Anyone get my point ?

[Maria]

Off topic - how comes your up so early on a sunday ?

[djiceman]

i heard this as well

 

 

very sickening when you thin about them two getting out free, when the bulger parents have got this whole torment for the rest of their own natural lives....

 

 

 

 

 

[LiquidEyes]

As always I'm puzzled by the "lynch mob" mentality that seems disproportionately prevalent on CTW.

 

1. To all the people who think the lads have not expressed any remorse: where did you get your facts from? An anecdotal comment by a prison officer, selectively reported by the media? Do you think the newspapers have represented both sides of the story fairly?

 

2. Even if the lads do not feel any remorse, do you really think they'd be stupid enough not to at least pretend they regret what happened? After all, for such an evil pair of sociopaths, surely a little lie isn't beyond their capabilities?

 

3. To all the people who think they should be locked up forever: does this apply to all murderers? After all, all murder victims have been denied the right to life, so surely all murderers should also be denied? Or does your argument only apply to the murders that you feel very emotional about? (i.e. those hyped up by the media!)

 

4. As a more generalised philosophical question: are there certain crimes that can never be forgiven? Personally I'm not sure - what right does one human have to condemn another to a life in prison (or the death penalty, or whatever). We can but try to uphold the principles of deterrence, rehabilitation etc, in the most humane manner possible.

 

5. Kitty: I don't understand your argument about their age at the time of the killing. Don't you think they might have grown up since they were 10? I mean, when I was a teenager, I used to pull the legs of daddy-long-legs (as many teenaged boys do). It was a systematic, cruel, calculated act. Yet I couldn't do that now - you could say I learned that it was wrong. Other kids systematically bullied others, mentally and physically. I put it to you that children (particularly boys) have a lesser sense of empathy for fellow life forms than adults do. Surely this is the whole reason for the fact that children are held "less responsible" for their actions? Do not think, for one second, that I think this excuses evil acts by children. Far from it. But let's not pretend that children are the same as adults. And shall we reject this silly notion that you can only get worse as you get older...?

 

6. I find it puzzling that, on the one hand, we have people who wish inmates to be "beaten", yet on the other hand we expressing shock that the lads are (allegedly) not reformed! Is it any wonder that people reoffend if we punish violence with violence? Which principle of humanity are we upholding there then?

[Lisa]

LE, I cant comment for others on the post & your right, maybe these two do feel remorse etc, but as I have stated before, as a other of 3 myself, I see this differently to possibly peeps that do not have children.

 

I had a convo with Tony ref this the other night & he said to me, so if it was one of your children that had commited the crime, would you not ever forgive them??

 

my truthful honest answer would be NO!! It would kill me inside, but I would have to wash my hands of my child & think of them as dead, murder is murder, but the circumstance around this particular case is harrowing & a hard one to get your head around.

 

What an earth possed two 10 year old boys to kidnap a 2 year old toddler, drag him, beat him & then kill him, is beyond belief!!

 

At ten, I didnt even know what murdr etc was & was still playing barbie dolls etc, I know times change but it is still hard to grasp, why???

[kitty]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Mar 16 2004, 11:43)

5. Kitty: I don't understand your argument about their age at the time of the killing. Don't you think they might have grown up since they were 10? I mean, when I was a teenager, I used to pull the legs of daddy-long-legs (as many teenaged boys do). It was a systematic, cruel, calculated act. Yet I couldn't do that now - you could say I learned that it was wrong. Other kids systematically bullied others, mentally and physically. I put it to you that children (particularly boys) have a lesser sense of empathy for fellow life forms than adults do. Surely this is the whole reason for the fact that children are held "less responsible" for their actions? Do not think, for one second, that I think this excuses evil acts by children. Far from it. But let's not pretend that children are the same as adults. And shall we reject this silly notion that you can only get worse as you get older...?

liquid eyes,do u ever get off my back?

 

where did i put about their age at time of killing?

ive re-read thro the post,as im sure i didnt go into this to much and i cant see anything i put bout age,i actually wandered off talking bout madrid and holly and jessica oh and who put this "silly" notion bout getting worse when older.?

 

pulling the legs off a daddy long legs isnt the same as beating,torturing and killing a little boy

i used to smack my dog when i was bout 7/8yrs old,pretty hard but for gods sake i wouldnt beat and kill a little child.

 

were having a discussion, as we all have different opinions.

i respect ur opinion and yes what u say makes alot of sense,so can u not respect others rather then trying to make our opinions look like that of two yr olds...

its funny tho as most of us have the same opinions about this situation.

The way u write things on here comes across like ur putting us down,or telling us off or something,its not exactly nice,esp when i didnt even put what ur having a go at me for.

Edited March 16, 2004 by kitty

[Guest Kether]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Mar 16 2004, 11:43)

As always I'm puzzled by the "lynch mob" mentality that seems disproportionately prevalent on CTW. 1. To all the people who think the lads have not expressed any remorse: where did you get your facts from? An anecdotal comment by a prison officer, selectively reported by the media? Do you think the newspapers have represented both sides of the story fairly? 2. Even if the lads do not feel any remorse, do you really think they'd be stupid enough not to at least pretend they regret what happened? After all, for such an evil pair of sociopaths, surely a little lie isn't beyond their capabilities? 3. To all the people who think they should be locked up forever: does this apply to all murderers? After all, all murder victims have been denied the right to life, so surely all murderers should also be denied? Or does your argument only apply to the murders that you feel very emotional about? (i.e. those hyped up by the media!) 4. As a more generalised philosophical question: are there certain crimes that can never be forgiven? Personally I'm not sure - what right does one human have to condemn another to a life in prison (or the death penalty, or whatever). We can but try to uphold the principles of deterrence, rehabilitation etc, in the most humane manner possible. 5. Kitty: I don't understand your argument about their age at the time of the killing. Don't you think they might have grown up since they were 10? I mean, when I was a teenager, I used to pull the legs of daddy-long-legs (as many teenaged boys do). It was a systematic, cruel, calculated act. Yet I couldn't do that now - you could say I learned that it was wrong. Other kids systematically bullied others, mentally and physically. I put it to you that children (particularly boys) have a lesser sense of empathy for fellow life forms than adults do. Surely this is the whole reason for the fact that children are held "less responsible" for their actions? Do not think, for one second, that I think this excuses evil acts by children. Far from it. But let's not pretend that children are the same as adults. And shall we reject this silly notion that you can only get worse as you get older...? 6. I find it puzzling that, on the one hand, we have people who wish inmates to be "beaten", yet on the other hand we expressing shock that the lads are (allegedly) not reformed! Is it any wonder that people reoffend if we punish violence with violence? Which principle of humanity are we upholding there then?

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (kitty @ Mar 16 2004, 17:38)

where did i put about their age at time of killing? ive re-read thro the post,as im sure i didnt go into this to much and i cant see anything i put bout age,i actually wandered off talking bout madrid and holly and jessica oh and who put this "silly" notion bout getting worse when older.?

Apologies: that comment was directed at Miss Diddy, not you. And I quote:

QUOTE

"If they have it in them to do it at 10, then what the fook are they capable of now eh???" "What I personnally worry about, is that at the age of 10, these two lads could find it in them to viciously kill a harmless toddler, so what are they capable of now???"

 

I'm not trying to "put anyone down", maybe you're reading too much into my post?

 

QUOTE

its funny tho as most of us have the same opinions about this situation.

Why's that funny? Because Kether and I have got the guts not to jump on the "lock them up forever and throw away the key" bandwagon? I just don't understand how people can have such one-sided opinions.

 

As for the daddy-long-legs thing: it's an ANALOGY. Look it up in the dictionary. My point is, kids are capable of things that adults aren't, and in the general case, kids do grow out of certain things. The reason I don't torture insects any more, is because I have a sense of empathy, which is the same reason I don't torture children.

 

I have no reason not to believe that the lads in question have grown up.

[alasdairm]

indeed.

 

further, a couple of people have now used the argument that "i didn't even know what murder was at 10..."

 

well, again, i'm not denying for one second that what these kids did was horrific but, given the reduced capacity we all had at age 10, it's entirely likely that these kids also didn't truly understand the full extent of what they were doing then either. yet another case of wanting cake and eating it?

 

i don't mean to go off on a tangent but do any of the contributors in the thread - who would execute these kids or lock them up and throw away the key - consider themselves christians?

 

if so, how do you resolve your bloodlust with "judge not lest you be judged" and the fundamental christian concept of forgiveness?

 

alasdair

Edited March 16, 2004 by alasdairm

[big_ee69]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Mar 16 2004, 11:43)

where did you get your facts from?[/b] An anecdotal comment by a prison officer, selectively reported by the media? Do you think the newspapers have represented both sides of the story fairly?

The sun, mail express, mirror, and star normally make this kind of stuff up. It's easier and suits their purposes. Just as long as they can keep printing the pictures, and selling more papers. I mean the Bulger killer's are hardly going to take them to court for libel.

 

The truth is that only a very few prison service physcologists know what the state of minds are. And they are NOT going to be debating it in public.

 

The crux of the problem is that the young offenders insitutions like feltham are so out of control, they make Turkish prisons look civilised. Putting them in there (as the only option, other than release, cos u can't stick 17 year olds into an adult prison) would have resulted in their deaths, or likely created two really evil monsters. Of the Dennis Neilsson / Yorkshire Ripper variety.

 

Neither prospect appealed to the home secreatry so he was forced to release them. As the least bad of three crap options, from a public opinion/ political expediency perspective. I'm sure he couldn't give two shits about the feelings of Jamie Bulger's parents. Nor wether the killers were in fact rehabilitated, killed or left to rot.

 

Myra Hyndley and the other 'Monsters' we have 'rotting' will never be realesed for the same reason. Ie It's the most politically expedient option.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2004 by big_ee69

[kitty]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Mar 16 2004, 19:37)

QUOTE (kitty @ Mar 16 2004, 17:38) where did i put about their age at time of killing? ive re-read thro the post,as im sure i didnt go into this to much and i cant see anything i put bout age,i actually wandered off talking bout madrid and holly and jessica oh and who put this "silly" notion bout getting worse when older.?   Apologies: that comment was directed at Miss Diddy, not you. And I quote: thanks for apology

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (alasdairm @ Mar 16 2004, 21:22)

further, a couple of people have now used the argument that "i didn't even know what murder was at 10..." ... if so, how do you resolve your bloodlust with "judge not lest you be judged" and the fundamental christian concept of forgiveness?

Indeed. Personally I'm an atheist, but even so, both "common sense" and my "gut feelings" dictate that you can't go on condemning/punishing/hating someone forever. Sooner or later, you've got to give the guys the benefit of the doubt.