My Foetus

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (Jessica Rabbit @ Apr 21 2004, 18:40)

I think you have absolutely no right to criticise a woman who seeks an abortion until you know all the details of the situation, every single case is different and you cannot go jumping to conclusions about people's behaviour, their thoughts and their feelings.

I think you're missing the crux of the "pro-life" argument here ... it isn't just about the mother's life.

 

I do agree with most of what you said at the start, but you can't say "I think you have absolutely no right to criticise a woman who seeks an abortion" ... I think you might find that a pro-life lobbyist WOULD criticise such a woman.

 

This is not to say that I agree with the pro-life argument (quite to the contrary in fact) but you can't win the abortion debate by denying the crux of the matter - IT IS NOT JUST THE MOTHER'S LIFE we're talking about - you are actually denying the BABY the choice of whether to live or not. That is an ABSOLUTE fact.

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 18:56)

well said my love

P.S. As a moderator (!) please would you mind setting a precedent by using "quotes" sensibly...? Quoting an entire post, then adding one line, directly below the post in question, just clogs up the forums! Thank you!

[Lisa]

Yeh totally Andy, but is it not down to the mother to decide what is best for her child, un born or otherwise!!

 

As stated before, it is not an easy choice by any means & alot of thought goes into for most, not just for the mother but for theunborn child, yeh sure there are a lot who just decide they dont want a baby & abort, which to me is wrong, as Colin said, precaution comes in many shaopes in this day & age, but how about the parents facing deformity at it's worst etc, mental & physical difformaties, there are lots of reason's as to why abortions take place & it is not just a case of the mother saying *oh shit*, she goes through the pain of trying to comprehend what type of life the child would have etc, it is by no means easy.

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (Jessica Rabbit @ Apr 21 2004, 18:40)

And as for 'hiding behind the pro-choice argument' - pro-choice simply means that women have the right to be able to choose how to live their lives and what happens to their bodies, something men have always had. If not then you just make women slaves to pregnancy.

So the idea of "pro-choice" selectively applies to the parents and not the child?

 

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, what about when the baby is born ... surely the mother has the right to "choose" whether to keep it or not?

 

If you don't give mothers the right to kill their babies, surely you are forcing them to be "slaves to parenthood"?

[Lisa]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Apr 21 2004, 19:40)

QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 18:56) well said my love P.S. As a moderator (!) please would you mind setting a precedent by using "quotes" sensibly...? Quoting an entire post, then adding one line, directly below the post in question, just clogs up the forums! Thank you!   what are you on about? I am not a moderator!! Im tetris champ so do one

Edited April 21, 2004 by Lisa

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 19:46)

what are you on about? I am not a moderator!!

Thank god for that... for some reason I thought you were!

[Lisa]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Apr 21 2004, 20:00)

QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 19:46) what are you on about? I am not a moderator!! Thank god for that... for some reason I thought you were! Tetris champ is my tiyle LE!! go on see if ya can beat me

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 20:02)

Tetris champ is my tiyle LE!! go on see if ya can beat me

Nah Columns is more my thing ... Tetris is a bit one-dimension for me.

Try to beat me in the casino if you like!

 

Jessica, I'm not trying to be argumentative BTW; I am more "pro-choice" than not actually. However I think you're ignoring the core pro-life argument!

[paula]

QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 20:02)

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Apr 21 2004, 20:00) QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 19:46) what are you on about? I am not a moderator!! Thank god for that... for some reason I thought you were! Tetris champ is my tiyle LE!! go on see if ya can beat me im good at tetris too

[colin66]

QUOTE (Lisa @ Apr 21 2004, 17:45)

Colin, I see what you are saying about unprotected sex, but that isnt the only reason on getting pregnant, some women on the pill, fall pregnant, rape victims can get pregnant, burst comden etc etc!!

Yea totally agree. There are cases such as the ones you listed where women have become pregnant even they took reasonable precautions. As I stated I was in fact referring to those who have become pregnant by acting 'irresponsibly' and who use the pro-life argument to justify their decision.

 

Jessica, you're completely missed my point.

[colin66]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Apr 21 2004, 19:37)

IT IS NOT JUST THE MOTHER'S LIFE we're talking about - you are actually denying the BABY the choice of whether to live or not.

[Jessica Rabbit]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Apr 21 2004, 19:37)

QUOTE (Jessica Rabbit @ Apr 21 2004, 18:40) I think you have absolutely no right to criticise a woman who seeks an abortion until you know all the details of the situation, every single case is different and you cannot go jumping to conclusions about people's behaviour, their thoughts and their feelings. I think you're missing the crux of the "pro-life" argument here ... it isn't just about the mother's life.   I do agree with most of what you said at the start, but you can't say "I think you have absolutely no right to criticise a woman who seeks an abortion" ... I think you might find that a pro-life lobbyist WOULD criticise such a woman.   This is not to say that I agree with the pro-life argument (quite to the contrary in fact) but you can't win the abortion debate by denying the crux of the matter - IT IS NOT JUST THE MOTHER'S LIFE we're talking about - you are actually denying the BABY the choice of whether to live or not. That is an ABSOLUTE fact. If you don't agree with abortion then you don't have to have one but you have NO RIGHT to decide what is best for the mother or her unborn child - that is up to her. Most women only want to bring a child into the world if they know they can provide them with the best possible upbringing.

[LiquidEyes]

QUOTE (Jessica Rabbit @ Apr 23 2004, 11:49)

If you don't agree with abortion then you don't have to have one but you have NO RIGHT to decide what is best for the mother or her unborn child - that is up to her.

A pro-life campaigner might interpret your post like this:

 

If you don't agree with murder then you don't have to kill anyone but you have NO RIGHT to decide what is best for the murderer or the victim - that is up to the murderer.

 

Would you say the law has no right to "step in" and tell a murderer what he can or cannot do?

[alasdairm]

abortion is not murder. that is a matter of legal fact.

 

alasdair

[Jessica Rabbit]

QUOTE (LiquidEyes @ Apr 23 2004, 14:23)

QUOTE (Jessica Rabbit @ Apr 23 2004, 11:49) If you don't agree with abortion then you don't have to have one but you have NO RIGHT to decide what is best for the mother or her unborn child - that is up to her. A pro-life campaigner might interpret your post like this:   If you don't agree with murder then you don't have to kill anyone but you have NO RIGHT to decide what is best for the murderer or the victim - that is up to the murderer.   Would you say the law has no right to "step in" and tell a murderer what he can or cannot do? You are missing an essential point here - the whole of the pro-life argument is based on the assumption that life begins at conception.   To decide when life begins, we have to work out what it is which makes us human, what separates us from other animals. One suggestion is that we have a concept of death and mortality, so in that case 'birth' would only truely happen when we understand what death is. A foetus is not a living life in the same way that a fully functioning human being is - if you decide that life begins at conception, then where do you draw the line? That would mean that the morning-after pill is murder. It would also mean that we cannot kill animals at all, as they arguably have more advanced mental capapbilities and perception of emotions and mortality than a foetus. Basically, you can debate when and where life begins and the humanity of the foetus until the end of time, but you can't ever question the humanity of the woman involved.   But anyway, to get to the bottem of the abortion debate you basically have to get into the realms of philosophy and 'why are we here?' 'what is life?', and TBH I do not know enough about philosophy to argue about it, and it's a bit deep for an internet forum I think. And as no one knows the true answer to these questions I guess we will never know whether abortion is 'right' or 'wrong', it is too complex an issue.   But anyway, I personally believe that life begins at birth, but don't really want to write an essay on the subject right now.