serious issues Honesty

[CreamyC]

Get out of anon and log on.

[James]

alasdairm said:

James said:

I can see that sometimes its beneficial to deliberately not disclose something - e.g., someome is in a bit of trouble but you are 90% certain the issue is going to be resolved before the person needs to know, so why tell them / potentially upset them.

 

james

 

you also said:

 

"another 'classic' which i cant stand is people using the 'what he/she/they dont know wont hurt him/her/them'"

 

these don't add up if you think about it?

 

alasdair

 

well i guess each suits different situations. I meant the 'what he/she doesnt know wont hurt them' in terms of when people use it when talking about what their partner doesnt know / wont find out.

 

The other term I meant in terms of a delicate situation which needs to be handled with tact and telling everyone and getting too many people involved right at the start of a problem is almost always NOT a good idea.

 

I do 100% agree with you that you should not second guess someones reaction, but if you know for a fact what someones reaction would be (you've been there before with them) then it can make sense to not tell certain individuals certain things - especially the ones who escalate the problem to piers who really DONT need to be involved. I'm mainly talking about in the workplace - I cant stand people wanting to escalate problems to make you look stupid - especially if they dont give others the full story. I.e. - part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[James]

In relation to job interviews I am 100% with LiquidEyes on this one. There is NO reason to lie about ANYTHING. Either you are fit for the job or you are not. If you do get the job based on lies you will only be found out - trust me - we've got rid of quite a few people who end up not being up to scratch.

 

What REALLY angers me are AGENCIES. THEY lie and will do anything in their power to get you to an interview, lying about your skills if necessary, and making you look fooking stupid when you state you havent got the required skills at the interview. Its a numbers game to them and they really DONT care about you or want to help you. Anything which is commission based is sadly a bad service (IMO). The amount of times i've had agencies promise to follow up with me after I got the job and then not is quite astonishing. Recently I applied for 2 jobs and both turned out to be BOGUS / not REAL jobs - they were plants to catch peoples CVs. Off topic I know but the worst liers i've come across in IT are the agencies... which is why i'm starting a new site which by-passes the whole agency concept (PM me for more details!)

[Rick D]

James said:

In relation to job interviews I am 100% with LiquidEyes on this one. There is NO reason to lie about ANYTHING. Either you are fit for the job or you are not. If you do get the job based on lies you will only be found out - trust me - we've got rid of quite a few people who end up not being up to scratch.

 

What REALLY angers me are AGENCIES. THEY lie and will do anything in their power to get you to an interview, lying about your skills if necessary, and making you look fooking stupid when you state you havent got the required skills at the interview. Its a numbers game to them and they really DONT care about you or want to help you. Anything which is commission based is sadly a bad service (IMO). The amount of times i've had agencies promise to follow up with me after I got the job and then not is quite astonishing. Recently I applied for 2 jobs and both turned out to be BOGUS / not REAL jobs - they were plants to catch peoples CVs. Off topic I know but the worst liers i've come across in IT are the agencies... which is why i'm starting a new site which by-passes the whole agency concept (PM me for more details!)

There are way too many cowboys in the IT recruitment area still, but they ar simple enough to deal with... James, do you have employers going straight to the site? What's the address?

[James]

waaaaay too many cowboys - and to think they get 10% commission in some cases!! IF ONLY they did a proper job they could get a good reputation and make more money. fools. I bad-mouth about 4 agencies at the moment to every developer & contractor I meet.

 

(this is off-topic I know)

 

Its all offline at the moment, only just in the database design process, the idea rocks and i'm hoping to knock the majority of IT agencies off their blocks. I think I could get the backing of the likes of learning tree & brainbench as well Its a good year or 2 off before any kind of site goes live!

[Rick D]

James said:

waaaaay too many cowboys - and to think they get 10% commission in some cases!! IF ONLY they did a proper job they could get a good reputation and make more money. fools. I bad-mouth about 4 agencies at the moment to every developer & contractor I meet.

 

(this is off-topic I know)

 

Its all offline at the moment, only just in the database design process, the idea rocks and i'm hoping to knock the majority of IT agencies off their blocks. I think I could get the backing of the likes of learning tree & brainbench as well Its a good year or 2 off before any kind of site goes live!

Know it's off topic, but there are other sites out there trying to do the direct marketing approach... The problem is getting companes to commit time to maintaining their own section...

 

Agreed, there are a few agencies not worth talking to, but by the same account, there are plenty of good ones...

 

Oh and 10% commission is very low... I know agencies that charge in the region of 25%...

[Guest]

Post deleted by James due to Anon reposting re-formatted version below ...

[Guest]

 

Sorry can't edit being Mr Anoymous so here it is again with out the funny codes for apostrophies:

 

The problem with honesty is that there are so many ways to lie, or be dishonest, beyond a deliberate statement or action that is intended to deceive, it is difficult to name them all. Some lies come when we minimize, or say something to avoid a confrontation, or to spare someone's feelings, or when we keep secrets we shouldn't, or exaggerate the truth, or conveniently "forget" what happened, Or denying we know. The list is endless, If you can't name them you can't classify them.

 

Complete honesty in all it's brutality would make life unbearable. And anyone who is, tends to end up with no relationships. I defy ANYONE to say they are completely and brutally honest with everyone about everything.

 

So if we accept that it's acceptable to tell some lies. Which we must do. Then it's difficult to legislate about what is acceptable dishonesty and what isn’t. So you must take each case on it's merits.

 

I have know people who if they came in wet, holding an umbrella, and said it was raining, I would still pop out and to check the weather. And others who I trust to tell me mostly the truth most of the time. Every one else is in between. You have to judge and make a decision, based on the individual and the circumstances. And in many cases I'm not sure I want to know the truth, and in many more, I not sure I care enough to be bothered either way.

 

 

[CreamyC]

Why are anon ?

[alasdairm]

Anonymous said:

The problem with honesty is that there are so many ways to lie, or be dishonest, beyond a deliberate statement or action that is intended to deceive, it is difficult to name them all.

 

that's not a problem with honesty, that's a problem with dishonesty!

 

 

Complete honesty in all it's brutality would make life unbearable.

 

i totally disagree. it's a question of context. if everybody in the world was brutally honest about everything all the time, the world would be a signiificantly better place, in my opinion.

 

if i am totally honest, the world is a better place for me but it may not be a better place for others because they continue to lie (often to themselves).

 

but, sadly we live in a world of, if he's doing it, i'm doing it..

 

now before you jump, i'm not saying i'm 100% brutally honest all the time. i'm a human and i'm weak and i lie like many others. however, i'm trying to better understand why i do this and do something about it...

 

alasdair

[LiquidEyes]

James said:

waaaaay too many cowboys - and to think they get 10% commission in some cases!!

20% is more typical mate. And yes, I've got a few tales of my own about agencies (scum!)

[James]

Anonymous said:

Complete honesty in all it's brutality would make life unbearable.

 

 

This is one of the most confusing & worrying statements I've read on the message board this week - why on EARTH would it make likfe more unbearable ? I'm not having a dig, this is how you feel, but I'd like to know why you feel this way as its intriguing.

 

End of the day if everyone is honest with everyone 100% of the time any issues & problems would be overcome that much more quickly and we could all move on and develop.

 

Animals dont lie to each other and I think they are a lot better off than most humans !

 

(BTW i'm not saying i'm currently honest 100% of the time, as i've stated in other posts, this is more about the concept of the perfect world)

[Lisa]

James said:

Anonymous said:

Complete honesty in all it's brutality would make life unbearable.

 

 

This is one of the most confusing & worrying statements I've read on the message board this week - why on EARTH would it make likfe more unbearable ? I'm not having a dig, this is how you feel, but I'd like to know why you feel this way as its intriguing.

 

End of the day if everyone is honest with everyone 100% of the time any issues & problems would be overcome that much more quickly and we could all move on and develop.

 

Animals dont lie to each other and I think they are a lot better off than most humans !

 

(BTW i'm not saying i'm currently honest 100% of the time, as i've stated in other posts, this is more about the concept of the perfect world)

 

 

 

James, I think poss the anon means it in terms of say little white lies which are bearable in some circumstance, ie: parents to children say when a pet dies or the tooth faries etc, we all get told or should I say most of us, thtat santa brings the gifts once a year etc, as we get older we learn this is an not the truth but we do not fall out with our parents, infact most of us go on & say the same to our own children!!

[LiquidEyes]

James said:

Animals dont lie to each other and I think they are a lot better off than most humans !

Apparently some orangutans/chimpanzees (can't remember exactly which type of animal) have exhibited "lying" style behaviour. Like many animals they have a language of their own (one grunt means "I want to mate with you", another means "look everyone I've found some food", perhaps a scream for "warning, incoming predator!")

 

Interestingly they have been observed to deliberately make the wrong sound, for personal gain. E.g. one of them will find a big stash of food, but instead of sharing it with everyone else, it makes the "incoming predator" noise, causing all the other members of the pack to bugger off so that it can hog the food!

 

Speaking only from a hypothetical point of view, lying takes more sophistication than "standard" impulsive animal behaviour. I guess you have to be self-aware, and be able to think conceptually, to think through a lie.

 

Though of course, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. Lying is often a very short-termist strategy, avoiding the core issue that perhaps you aren't actually suited to such-and-such a job, or that you really shouldn't have cheated on your partner to start with!

 

Also I think habitual lying betrays a basic lack of empathy for those around us. It is unbelievable when someone lies to your face, and they know you know they're lying. What a nerve!

[Guest]

Yes officer this is pure 100% illegal.....

Which my best mate Dave just sold me. I have loads more at home.

 

No Dear I think the new haircut is dreadful, and you need to lose about 4 stone, and being as we've been together for two years I am actively seeking a new boyfrind.

 

No officer I was travlleing at 90 per hour becuase I felt like it. Please arrest me.

 

That's the most ridiculous idea i've ever heard boss, it will never work in a thousand years. I know that will make you feel really angry, but i think being 100% honest is the best policy...Don't worry about my payrise.

 

No, Dad Lots of people who get lung cancer survive, modern medicine is doing wonders.

 

Yes Dear I know you've lost both your parent's, and you're still so very young. But I don't belive in a any sort of afterlife. So their not watching over you, and you are all alone in the world.