serious issues Death & Dying

[Capn Jack]

Blink said:

Capn_Jack

 

I am with you on this way, although you do have to admit, the only way we will be able to prove are theory is when we die. Bit of a bummer really, isn't it!

 

What a way to test a theory.

[Blink]

Capn_Jack said:

What a way to test a theory.

 

You prepared to die for your beliefs?

[Capn Jack]

Blink said:

Capn_Jack said:

What a way to test a theory.

 

You prepared to die for your beliefs?

 

Not just yet, I have a few more things to do before I cease to exist. Not that I'll be any the wiser afterwoulds as I would be dead.

[Lisa]

re-make of flatliners!!!

[Blink]

See, the problem with that is, they wren't dead. If they were dead, they wouldn't have come back. simple.

 

And I am sure that there is research that has shown that "near death" experience can be replicated chemically/biologically....I saw a program recently where a guy was using magnetism to induce feelngs of "a presence" in the room, and replicating in people feelings of being "visited by god"

[Guest]

This is slowly going

[Aleksandra]

Captn Jack

 

I'd love to engage in a challenging debate but for that I'd need to have a full formed opinion which I'm putting forward. As I said, that's not the case - I guess that makes me an agnostic. All I'm able to do is offer a few loose thoughts and ideas.

Personally I don't believe in God as defined by Christianity or Islam or any other organised religion. But that doesn't mean I necessarily feel certain about what happens after death. Whatever it is, it may have an explanation that fits in with laws of physics etc and doesn't require any mystical forces, but perhaps science hasn't quite got there yet.

They did think Earth was flat....(and for a long time!)

[James]

Blink said:

Capn_Jack said:

What a way to test a theory.

 

You prepared to die for your beliefs?

 

I am, so long as the dying process is not painfull

[Andrew]

Blink said:

Once you have got beyond the whole "Big Bang" causation arguement, the universe then trundles happily along following chemical/physical laws. At some point along the way, a couple of molecules stuck together and found themselves replicating themselves. This is the fundamental tenant of ALL life REPLICATION All life exists solely to recreate itself, upto and including human life. (Well, upto the point where we developed ideas and people wishing a greater discussion on the future of evolution through ideas should read Richard Dawkins - The Blind Watchmaker, & The Selfish Gene specifically his references to memes)

 

 

So, at the end of the day Life exists soley to recreate life from the lowest virus (whether viruses actually constitute life is a whole other arguement), up through single celled life froms, all the way up to the most higly evolved mammals. Show my a species that doesn't exist to recreate itself, and I will show you a species that is going to become extinct VERY quickly.

 

Blink - Don't these two paragraphs in your previous post contradict each other?

 

I personally believe what I think you are saying in the first of the two paragraphs above... once a being gains the ability to reflect on it's actions, i.e. gains consciousness... then the whole ball game of simply live to reproduce changes...

 

When people gain this consciousness they then have the ability to adapt/ rein in/ change their instinctive behaivours... the clearest examples of this include the use of contraception, whereby after thinking about the issue more and more people are actively choosing not to reproduce themselves...

 

However this consciousness also gives us the ability to dream/ imagine/ visualise new worlds/ great experience, as you mention in your first paragraph...

 

... therefore i would say for conscious beings, i.e. those that can think about their actions the Meaning of life is twofold:

 

(1) To dream/ imagine/ visualise the world you want to life in, and

 

(2) Make those dreams/ images/ visions a reality to the best of your ability

 

 

 

 

 

Diablo said:

This is slowly going

 

i guess this is where it comes back on topic...

 

the thought of dying doesn;t frighten that much (well to be honest the uncertainty of it all is a bit scarey)... but it would piss me off hugely if it happened any time soon... as (as I think Capt Jack also mentioned)... i don't reckon i've done enough living yet... still lots to think about and still lots to do and experience (i hope)

 

 

[alasdairm]

Diablo said:

Personally the thought of dying terrifies me, although I know its inevitable

 

this might be of interest: my 5meoDMT-addled vision of death

 

alasdair

[alasdairm]

Capn_Jack said:

...to your body...

 

for many people, that's a tiny part of the issue...

 

alasdair

[Blink]

In reply to your post Andrew, firstly I stated that if you wanted a full-on discussion about evolution once you have reached human conciousness levels, to go and read Dawkins.

 

You cannot deny, however, that even at this point in our evolution, lifes fundamental purpose is to reproduce. Sure some people don't want to have kids (me for example) but that means my genes will die out, thereby removing themselves from the gene pool. You always have to think on a species level, not an a singular level, any single person can chose not but that mutation will not replicate itself into future generations....and for every person who doesn't want kids, there are 10s that do, even those who will go through various treatments to get themselves beyond their physical inability to reproduce.

 

As soon as any species evolves beyond the need to reproduce, it will die out. Simple fundamental biological law. If you don't reproduce, your species dies. If humans ever develop the ability to achieve immortality, then our genes will have achieved the ultimate, and will not need to reproduce (and dilute themselves, cos in reproduction only half of your genes go forward) but will themselves be immortal.

[alasdairm]

Capn_Jack said:

Thats just chemical and electrical processes that take place as with everything in your body, spirit isn't anything but a process, nothing magical or religious about it. When you die your chemical and electrical activites have ceased and your body (and spirit) decompose.

 

that's certainly a reductionist way to look at it. it's quite possible that there are many, many more possibilities.

 

i'm not a religious person but i have considered spirituallity on many occasions. the above is what will happen when you die. for many other people, that's not necessarily the case.

 

alasdair

[alasdairm]

James said:

I personally think that there is a [censored] load more going on than just your body/chemicals/matter. You FEEL alive - I cant describe it - its like another sense - nothing to do with what your brain conjures up.

 

nicely put. i agree. i just read a book others here may enjoy called Gentle Bridges. here's the publisher's abstract:

 

"What is the essence of the mind? Could computers ever have consciousness? Can compassion be learned? When does consciousness enter the human embryo? These are just some of the many questions that were discussed during a historic meeting that took place between several prominent Western scientists and the Dalai Lama. Gentle Bridges is a chronicle of this extraordinary exchange of ideas."

 

excerpt:

 

DALAI LAMA: In terms of the actual substance of which computers are made, are they simply metal, plastic, circuits, and so forth?

VARELA: Yes, but this again brings up the idea of the pattern, not the substance but the pattern.

DALAI LAMA: It is very difficult to say that it's not a living being, that it doesn't have cognition, even from the Buddhist point of view. We maintain that there are certain types of births in which a preceding continuum of consciousness is the basis. The consciousness doesn't actually arise from the matter, but a continuum of consciousness might conceivably come into it.

HAYWARD: Does Your Holiness regard it as a definite criterion that there must be continuity with some prior consciousness? That whenever there is a cognition, there must have been a stream of cognition going back to beginningless time?

DALAI LAMA: There is no possibility for a new cognition, which has no relationship to a previous continuum, to arise at all. I can't totally rule out the possibility that, if all the external conditions and the karmic action were there, a stream of consciousness might actually enter into a computer.

HAYWARD: A stream of consciousness?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, that's right. [DALAI LAMA laughs.] There is a possibility that a scientist who is very much involved his whole life [with computers], then the next life . . . [he would be reborn in a computer], same process! [laughter] Then this machine which is half-human and half-machine has been reincarnated.

VARELA: You wouldn't rule it out then? You wouldn't say this is impossible?

DALAI LAMA: We can't rule it out.

ROSCH: So if there's a great yogi who meditates in front of the best computer there is, could he project his subtle consciousness into the computer?

DALAI LAMA: If the physical basis of the computer acquires the potential or the ability to serve as a basis for a continuum of consciousness. I feel this question about computers will be resolved only by time. We just have to wait and see until it actually happens.

 

it's an extremely interesting, thought-provoking book.

 

namaste

 

alasdair

[alasdairm]

Capn_Jack said:

I fail to see...

 

is something impossible just because you fail to see it?

 

are you open to the idea that, even though you can't understand something, that doesn't mean it's not possible?

 

alasdair