Who on here HASNT been to Uni ?

[Bukey]

Kether said:

In your experience maybe not but what is fact:

 

But even your study only shows a snapshot of today... Look closely and it covers 21 - 50 year olds... I'd be interested to see what a study of 21 - 30 year olds showed, I think it would paint a completely different picture...

 

Kether said:

- Graduates earn more over the course of their lives.

 

We'll see when we're at retirement age, shall we? I think the tables are turning compared to how things have been up until now... Corporates are having to be a lot more economic with funds than they have ever been in the past. This has altered the way corporates work - espcially on the hiring front.

 

Kether said:

- Graduates occupy the highest positions in the biggest companies worldwide.

 

I don't deny this... But I really think it's a case of the old boys club and looking after their own... I know graduates in management that only want to hire graduates - regardless of them having any interest, enthusiasm, capability or any other real worth for a position.... But this is changing as people realise what is going on.

 

Kether said:

- In this country MPs are almost exclusively graduates.

 

I really do believe that this explains a lot.... It's time more ordinary people stood up and ran for Parliament... It's time Britain came back to the people and the Government worked for the "man on the street."

 

Kether said:

- Having a good degree from a good university is worth infintely more than 3 years experience as an office junior.

 

How about 6 months experience as a Junior Consultant, 18 months as a Senior Consulant, 18 months as an IT Technical Manager and 30 months as a Senior Server Consultant for the world's largest communications company. I can guarantee that my experience is worth more than a degree in an IT-based field that I could have earned by now instead.

 

Kether said:

Why do you think the best universities have links with the companies such as PriceWaterHouseCoopers, Eversheds, Smithkline Beecham etc etc? Unis head hunt the highest calibre of people from universities. Why? In general, the most talented people go to university.

 

In general, the most talented people go to university?!?!! That's why companies start headhunting people out of college and school to work for them.... And they never end up at Uni... But these are two very broad generalisations. They're dependant upon someone excelling in education at younger years - and it being noticed. I know of some extremely bright people that never did well at school. Why? Because they were bored, or weren't catered for. The education system is setup to create failures as well as successes.

 

Kether said:

Also, a degree gives you a route into most professions without you having to actually have experience in that field as long as you show enough aptitude (this seems to be excluding ppl getting [censored] degrees at [censored] unis).

 

Exactly. WTF is that all about? You don't have an interest in an area, you don't know anything about the profession, you have a degree in a non-related subject, but you can get a career in that profession. There is only one way to phrase this... Old boys club. Again. But it is changing. Corporates are finally starting to realise that it costs more to train a graduate without a clue than it is to train someone that's already halfway there...

 

Kether said:

I think a lot of people forget that university isn't just a a place to learn, it's a place to network, learn to live on your own in a safe environment and develop as a person.

 

Granted, there's a lot more than just gaining a degree... That said, I've been networking for years, I've lived on my own (although don't at the moment), and become very independant in life. All of this has been done off my own back - no safety nets strung out below me in case I fall. I don't think either route should be knocked in terms of developing as a person - they both offer similar outcomes albeit via different methods.

 

Kether said:

Fair play to people that don't go to university but anyone that doesn't is seriously missing out.

 

I don't believe they are... Name me just one experience (apart from academic learning) that someone that hasn't gone to Uni can't have had.

[Shenlong]

Bukey said:

How about 6 months experience as a Junior Consultant, 18 months as a Senior Consulant, 18 months as an IT Technical Manager and 30 months as a Senior Server Consultant for the world's largest communications company. I can guarantee that my experience is worth more than a degree in an IT-based field that I could have earned by now instead.

 

Cheat, that 6 years work experience you're comparing to a 3 year degree!

[Kether]

Bukey said:

But even your study only shows a snapshot of today... Look closely and it covers 21 - 50 year olds... I'd be interested to see what a study of 21 - 30 year olds showed, I think it would paint a completely different picture...

 

Did you bother clicking that link I put up, it shows a complete breakdown by age group but as it was in spreadsheet format I couldn't be arsed putting it on here, hence provided a link.

 

Bukey said:

We'll see when we're at retirement age, shall we? I think the tables are turning compared to how things have been up until now... Corporates are having to be a lot more economic with funds than they have ever been in the past. This has altered the way corporates work - espcially on the hiring front.

 

I think you're semi-right here but the people that go to the best universities and study the most prestigous degrees will always demand and receive the highest salaries. Where the gap will be bridges is in the newer universities with their [censored] degrees which, IMO, aren't worth the paper they're written on.

 

Bukey said:

I don't deny this... But I really think it's a case of the old boys club and looking after their own... I know graduates in management that only want to hire graduates - regardless of them having any interest, enthusiasm, capability or any other real worth for a position.... But this is changing as people realise what is going on.

 

More fool them at the end of the day, you should always hire the right person for the job but I'd wager more often than not a graduate is the right person for the job.

 

Bukey said:

I really do believe that this explains a lot.... It's time more ordinary people stood up and ran for Parliament... It's time Britain came back to the people and the Government worked for the "man on the street."

 

I think it says a lot for the amount of time, effort, dedication and hard work and intellect that goes into and is needed for running the country. Can you imagine the average person off the street being in the cabinet and then taking on Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight? It may seem like a good idea in practise but unless that non-graduate is intelligent/hard working etc then they're not going to be good at the job.

 

Bukey said:

How about 6 months experience as a Junior Consultant, 18 months as a Senior Consulant, 18 months as an IT Technical Manager and 30 months as a Senior Server Consultant for the world's largest communications company. I can guarantee that my experience is worth more than a degree in an IT-based field that I could have earned by now instead.

 

In your field it may be the case and for you specifically you seem to have done very well for yourself without a degree and I'm sure you're proud of yourself as you should be. There are a million and one other careers out there with evidence to show that graduates earn more/do better throughout the course of their careers. Congratulations on being an exception to the rule.

 

Bukey said:

In general, the most talented people go to university?!?!!

 

Yes, not hard to work out is it seeing as universities are the centres of academic excellence throughout the world.

 

Bukey said:

Exactly. WTF is that all about? You don't have an interest in an area, you don't know anything about the profession, you have a degree in a non-related subject, but you can get a career in that profession. There is only one way to phrase this... Old boys club. Again. But it is changing. Corporates are finally starting to realise that it costs more to train a graduate without a clue than it is to train someone that's already halfway there...

 

Think of university as an aptitude test. Everyone there is talented enough to complete their course but some don't and some do particularly well. By completing your degree you're showing and learning valuable skills. Take my degree for instance (medicinal chemistry), I write essays, do complex maths, analysis, lab work (independantly or in teams), independent research, do presentations etc etc. All of these are valuable skills to be used in the future. This is before you count any extra-cirricular activities such as sport, charity work and clubs. University gives you the opportunity to become a more rounded person, it's up to the individual whether they choose to make the most of the time there or not.

 

Bukey said:

Granted, there's a lot more than just gaining a degree... That said, I've been networking for years, I've lived on my own (although don't at the moment), and become very independant in life. All of this has been done off my own back - no safety nets strung out below me in case I fall. I don't think either route should be knocked in terms of developing as a person - they both offer similar outcomes albeit via different methods.

 

true.

 

Bukey said:

I don't believe they are... Name me just one experience (apart from academic learning) that someone that hasn't gone to Uni can't have had.

 

Living on campus, student events, student speakers, student clubs, pastoral care.

 

University might not be everyone like you've proved but we're sure a hell of a lot better off with them than without them.

[Bukey]

Shenlong said:

Bukey said:

How about 6 months experience as a Junior Consultant, 18 months as a Senior Consulant, 18 months as an IT Technical Manager and 30 months as a Senior Server Consultant for the world's largest communications company. I can guarantee that my experience is worth more than a degree in an IT-based field that I could have earned by now instead.

 

Cheat, that 6 years work experience you're comparing to a 3 year degree!

 

Yup, but that six years is since I've left school... College is "part of" your degree run up... So it's only comparing six years experience to five years academic study.... And I was in the same position I am now 12 months ago...

[Tunic]

Can I add to this debate - Uni is not for everyone. However, those of you who have NOT gone to Uni AND been successful - well done - you deserve it. That is not an easy path to take and it is one I respect.

 

HOWEVER, if people are reading this article and in two minds whether or not to go - especially if they have high expectations career-wise - it is at least important you fully understand all of the consequences of going / not going etc. I, for example, would be very wary of employing anymore non-degree (I.T.) qualified people in our company because people who learn their skills outside a formalised academic environment may not be as disciplined as those who've learnt within it.

 

But like I have said (before you all start to flame me) - mucho respect to the people who've made it without going to university - you have taken very important decisions at very young ages and have probably had to work hard to get where you are.

 

 

 

[Bukey]

Kether said:

Did you bother clicking that link I put up, it shows a complete breakdown by age group but as it was in spreadsheet format I couldn't be arsed putting it on here, hence provided a link.

 

Yup... Sorry, should've explained myself more. It's a snapshot, many samples used were with less than 30,000 participants.... Relatively, it's a very, very small weighted snapshot. I'd be interested to see the same survey carried out over the 21-30 age range with a much higher sample size. Also, I was interested to note that self employed people were excluded from the survey.

 

Kether said:

I think you're semi-right here but the people that go to the best universities and study the most prestigous degrees will always demand and receive the highest salaries. Where the gap will be bridges is in the newer universities with their [censored] degrees which, IMO, aren't worth the paper they're written on.

 

You're right in a way, but this isn't really showing quite as much as it used to. The "old boys club" is starting (albeit slowly) to fall apart. In the past, if Mummy and Daddy had enough money to ensure your place at the more prestigous establishments, and you had a few ounces of common sense and hard work about you, you'd get one of the better degrees out there.

 

Whilst the best degrees from the best establishments do indeed deserve merit, and those who have earned them will always be above the majority, there are more and more successful people with lesser degrees or indeed no degree that have the same drive, ambition and intelligence that are making it.

 

Kether said:

More fool them at the end of the day, you should always hire the right person for the job but I'd wager more often than not a graduate is the right person for the job.

 

More fool them indeed... But it's how this country has been run for the last hundred years at a corporate level. I'd wager against you that a graduate is the right person more often than not. Every individual has their skills and areas of expertise. Whilst university does offer many merits, I think that the non-university track can also offer many merits. I look around at some of the people I went to school with - of those that didn't go to university I find managers, directors, consultants... I think you'd agree that this isn't a bad result for a community that grew up on the breadline. On the whole we were written off - it's probably the best thing that happened to some of us.

 

Kether said:

I think it says a lot for the amount of time, effort, dedication and hard work and intellect that goes into and is needed for running the country.

 

I agree... This assumes that those who didn't go to university are stupid. This is simply not the case. Going to university is not a measure of someone's intelligence!!!

 

Kether said:

Can you imagine the average person off the street being in the cabinet and then taking on Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight?

 

Yes, I can. Because they'd be there for causes they believed in. They'd be talking from the heart about the issues that affect their daily lives. Instead of some idiot that's pretty much removed from the day-to-day struggles experienced by the majority of society. Admittidly, many people would not be suited to being a reprasentative of the people. They couldn't handle the debates, the effort and intellect required to run the country. A fair few people could though - and this isn't restricted in the main to graduates.

 

Kether said:

It may seem like a good idea in practise but unless that non-graduate is intelligent/hard working etc then they're not going to be good at the job.

 

We agree on this point... I think that more people are intelligent and hardworking than you give them credit for, though.

 

Kether said:

Bukey said:

In general, the most talented people go to university?!?!!

Yes, not hard to work out is it seeing as universities are the centres of academic excellence throughout the world.

 

Take two people with identical levels of intellect and talent. The first goes to university and the second doesn't. What you're saying is the second person is actually of lower intellect and talent?

 

Kether said:

Think of university as an aptitude test. Everyone there is talented enough to complete their course but some don't and some do particularly well. By completing your degree you're showing and learning valuable skills. Take my degree for instance (medicinal chemistry), I write essays, do complex maths, analysis, lab work (independantly or in teams), independent research, do presentations etc etc. All of these are valuable skills to be used in the future. This is before you count any extra-cirricular activities such as sport, charity work and clubs. University gives you the opportunity to become a more rounded person, it's up to the individual whether they choose to make the most of the time there or not.

 

Okay, so my career path hasn't required the complex maths or the laboratory chemisty side - but I've written papers (both business/technical for boards, and technical for colleagues), done analysis, both independent and group research, presentations, worked in groups and clubs. I've had the option of being involved in sports after work, I do hundreds of hours charity work a year.... It's not so different.

 

Kether said:

Living on campus, student events, student speakers, student clubs, pastoral care.

 

Aside from living on campus, almost identical experiences are available outside of the university life-track.

 

Kether said:

University might not be everyone like you've proved but we're sure a hell of a lot better off with them than without them.

 

I think universities do play a fundemental role in society. I don't think it's the be-all and end-all for life though, and I don't think that graduates are necessarily better than non-graduates.

[Bukey]

StuJ said:

I, for example, would be very wary of employing anymore non-degree (I.T.) qualified people in our company because people who learn their skills outside a formalised academic environment may not be as disciplined as those who've learnt within it.

 

Whereas I'd be in exactly the opposite frame of mind... Not just degrees though.

 

Give me someone with drive, intelligence, a genuine interest for IT first and foremost.

 

Then consider real-life experience.

 

The last thing I'd consider is formal qualifications - industry or degree based. These wouldn't really go against the candidate (in fact, of course they'd be positives), but the things mentioned above would be more important to me as a manager/employer in IT.

[Tunic]

Bukey said:

I think universities do play a fundemental role in society. I don't think it's the be-all and end-all for life though, and I don't think that graduates are necessarily better than non-graduates.

 

Agreed.

 

Universities do not offer vocational career paths - these are something that this country is lacking. Everyone to their own.

[Tunic]

Bukey said:

StuJ said:

I, for example, would be very wary of employing anymore non-degree (I.T.) qualified people in our company because people who learn their skills outside a formalised academic environment may not be as disciplined as those who've learnt within it.

 

Whereas I'd be in exactly the opposite frame of mind... Not just degrees though.

 

Give me someone with drive, intelligence, a genuine interest for IT first and foremost.

 

Then consider real-life experience.

 

The last thing I'd consider is formal qualifications - industry or degree based. These wouldn't really go against the candidate (in fact, of course they'd be positives), but the things mentioned above would be more important to me as a manager/employer in IT.

 

The issue within IT though may vary depending on the nature of the job. I am a software developer and hence need ideally people to be well versed in the fundamentals rather than the practical side - that can come later. With regards to networking implementation / servers etc., I believe these are skills that are better suited to practical training.

 

Thats not to make one better than the other - they are different skill sets and have different ideal mechanisms to be taught.

[Kether]

The general gist of your arguement is that you can be very successful if you don't have a degree whereas mine says that you are more likely to be successful if you do have a degree.

 

We can exchange tit for tat all day because it's obvious we both feel very strongly about it. I could also go on and explain how I think the university system and the government drive to get more people into university fails students because a degree is seen as the holy grail of learning.

 

We need a more diverse higher education system that allows the more academic to study academic degrees and then go on to do what they want then the people just below them to go onto more vocational qualifications which will be of much more benefit to the students and the country.

 

Overall, universities are essential to the success of this country and every other developed country in the world. The calibre of people that go to them is, mostly, higher than people that don't go to them but that's because of the way the education system is set up. That's not because a student is automatically better than a non-student.

[danniekavanagh]

Meeeeee!.... didn't get the chance, got a job straight after school.

 

Glad I did'nt cause' I'd have missed out on working in Tenerife for 18 months if I had....