serious issues Should life mean life?

[BenRW]

alasdairm said:

benrostwood said:

If you increase the punishment for doing inhumane acts like this then it will decrease the amount of occurences of this.

 

that is, sadly, more nonsense from you ben.

 

the huge bulk of research on the death penalty shows that severity of the possible sentence is not a deterrent to criminals.

 

especially in the case of the death penalty - even the most cursory examination of the US shows this is absolutely true.

 

a far more effective deterrent is likelihood of capture and conviction.

 

alasdair

 

if as u say the liklihood of capture and conviction were higher

the death sentence wud be a deterrent over other forms of conviction.

 

As i said earlier on, when the death sentence was abolished in the UK some level of crime increased. Unfortunately i didnt keep the newspaper cutting these last three yrs since i read the article as i didnt think id need it so cant back it up or give u exact figures. Sorry

 

Off topic, but just out of interest, why do u always post ur name at the bottom of all ur posts, its not as if we dont know who posted it???

[alasdairm]

Krazeh said:

Well it pretty much stops them ever doing it again

 

again, the huge bulk of research suggests that this comment is way off the mark.

 

rape and other forms of sexual abuse are as much - if not more - about control as they are about sexual satisfaction/penetration/whatever.

 

if people are serious about discussing these issues, they really need to inform themselves better...

 

alasdair

[Guest]

I agree with alisdaire on this, no amount of threatening punishment will stop or detter, IMO if they are gonna do it, they will!!!

[alasdairm]

benrostwood said:

if as u say the liklihood of capture and conviction were higher the death sentence wud be a deterrent over other forms of conviction.

 

i can't work out if you are agreeing or disagreeing?

 

the 'capture and conviction' argument should be decoupled from the sentence discussion.

 

it's like the difference between casual gamblers and professional gamblers. casual gamblers bet on possibilities. pro gamblers bet on probabilities. there's a parallel here.

 

 

benrostwood said:

As i said earlier on, when the death sentence was abolished in the UK some level of crime increased. Unfortunately i didnt keep the newspaper cutting these last three yrs since i read the article as i didnt think id need it so cant back it up or give u exact figures. Sorry

 

without any substantiation, your comments like these are, in my opinion, essentially worthless. i say that because there are so many factors/other variables at play here. your argument smacks of 'post hoc' too - for what that's worth

 

 

benrostwood said:

Off topic, but just out of interest, why do u always post ur name at the bottom of all ur posts, its not as if we dont know who posted it???

 

explanation here: http://community.clubtheworld.uk/showth...amp;sb=5&o=

 

alasdair

Edited December 1, 2003 by alasdairm

[BenRW]

capture and conviction shud be coupled with sentence. If the likihood of being caught and convicted is high but the sentence low then the person will know that he can be out again soon if he's caught. Increase the sentence and he knows that if hes caught hes gonna go down for along time. Therefore not as likely to do it.

 

not sure about the difference between gamblers as i dont do it or know the rules or different wasy to play etc.

 

Fair enuff about the sig. Personally i wudnt be bothered as im lazy.

[Guest]

benrostwood said:

capture and conviction shud be coupled with sentence. If the likihood of being caught and convicted is high but the sentence low then the person will know that he can be out again soon if he's caught. Increase the sentence and he knows that if hes caught hes gonna go down for along time. Therefore not as likely to do it.

 

not sure about the difference between gamblers as i dont do it or know the rules or different wasy to play etc.

 

Fair enuff about the sig. Personally i wudnt be bothered as im lazy.

 

 

& who pays for them to remain locked up???!!!!!

[BenRW]

i dont neccessarily mean just lock em up.

 

If they have commited an obscene crime and there is witnesses testifying as to seeing him commit the act (not just locate him near the scene of the crime) and no evidence for him in his defence other than his word that he didnt do it then the death sentence shud return in this country.

 

Only in extreme cases tho.

[Guest]

benrostwood said:

i dont neccessarily mean just lock em up.

 

If they have commited an obscene crime and there is witnesses testifying as to seeing him commit the act (not just locate him near the scene of the crime) and no evidence for him in his defence other than his word that he didnt do it then the death sentence shud return in this country.

 

Only in extreme cases tho.

 

 

Well lets look at in a different direction shall we... They have the death penalty in the states & not here, but who infact has the highest death/murder rate!!!!

[BenRW]

miss_diddy said:

benrostwood said:

i dont neccessarily mean just lock em up.

 

If they have commited an obscene crime and there is witnesses testifying as to seeing him commit the act (not just locate him near the scene of the crime) and no evidence for him in his defence other than his word that he didnt do it then the death sentence shud return in this country.

 

Only in extreme cases tho.

 

 

Well lets look at in a different direction shall we... They have the death penalty in the states & not here, but who infact has the highest death/murder rate!!!!

 

already been said. Have u noticed how small the UK is compared to the US??

[Guest]

benrostwood said:

miss_diddy said:

benrostwood said:

i dont neccessarily mean just lock em up.

 

If they have commited an obscene crime and there is witnesses testifying as to seeing him commit the act (not just locate him near the scene of the crime) and no evidence for him in his defence other than his word that he didnt do it then the death sentence shud return in this country.

 

Only in extreme cases tho.

 

 

Well lets look at in a different direction shall we... They have the death penalty in the states & not here, but who infact has the highest death/murder rate!!!!

 

already been said. Have u noticed how small the UK is compared to the US??

 

& what difference really does that make!!! They have higher penalties for crime etc but this does not deter, so your idea of higher sentancing is blown away really isnt it!!

 

[alasdairm]

benrostwood said:

Increase the sentence and he knows that if hes caught hes gonna go down for along time. Therefore not as likely to do it.

 

there is a huge amount of research (not to mention empirical evidence) on this subject which says that your statement is quite wrong.

 

you can repeat something a million times - that doesn't make it true.

 

alasdair

[alasdairm]

benrostwood said:

already been said. Have u noticed how small the UK is compared to the US??

 

if we are discussing per capita crime (which is the only sensible way to discuss this) the size of the country in question is (essentially) irrelevant.

 

alasdant

[LiquidEyes]

benrostwood said:

If they have commited an obscene crime ... then the death sentence shud return in this country.

 

Only in extreme cases tho.

Here we go ... massive generalisation ... following by huge disclaimer!

 

How is a penalty, applied "only in extreme cases", going to be a deterrent to the masses?

[LiquidEyes]

Claire DC said:

I have my own personal view on paedophiles from personal experience so i think i am in a fairly good position to make a comment based on my own feelings/thoughts towards them after what happened to me!!

You seem to imply that your opinion holds more weight because of this?

 

Why do you feel you are in a particularly "good position to make a comment"? (i.e. enough to feel the need to mention it?)

 

Is it because:

1. you know more facts about the issue at hand; or

2. you are more emotionally attached to the issue?

 

Surely you don't think that mutilation of offenders is a constructive suggestion?

If so, do you have a good reason to support your view?

Or is it just a gut feeling?

[LiquidEyes]

benrostwood said:

capture and conviction shud be coupled with sentence.

I don't think you understood Alasdair's post at all. Re-read it!

 

In a nutshell, the evidence points to the fact that higher probability of conviction is more of a deterrent. Alasdair never once said that we should slacken (nor harshen) the sentencing.

 

As you're such a geek (only joking ) let me express this in mathematical terms. X (probability of conviction) and Y (harshness of sentence) are two independent variables. Obviously both have an impact on the issue of "degree of deterrence from crime", let's call this Z.

 

So Z = F(X,Y)

I.e. Z is some arbitrary function of X & Y (and of course innumerable other variables).

 

It is simple-minded (and mathematically flawed) to suggest that increasing Y indefinitely will continue to increase Z. Pretty obvious really: there's going to be a point where the punishment is so unpleasant that increasing it will make no difference!

 

(IMHO going to prison for sex crime, given society's attitude towards it, is arguably worse than death ... but anyway)

 

What Alasdair pointed out (IMHO in layman's terms!) is that X & Y are truly independent. Increasing X does not necessarily have the same effect of increasing Y. That is why he said they should be "de-coupled"!